In the latest Mobile Growth and Pancakes Podcast episode, Esther Shatz is joined by Hannah Parvaz, the Head of Growth at Curio Labs. With her exceptional growth and marketing experience, Hannah shares her strategies and tips for creating ads that bring growth.
Check out all the other episodes of Mobile Growth & Pancakes here.
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00:40 – Introduction of Hannah Parvaz
01:25 – Introduction of Curio Labs
02:03 – How to drive traffic for growth?
04:23 – Signal based advertisement
06:13 – How to use social media in the growth process effectively
09:05 – Diversity of subscribers and audiences
12:05 – Last two years of Curio Labs
22:51 – Creative marketing vs. data drive marketing
26:54 – Difference between theory vs. fieldwork
29:37 – How to be creative in your work?
32:02 – Quickfire questions
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“To create ads that bring growth, focus on customers queries and feedback”Hannah Parvaz
- Hannah won the 2019 mobile growth and marketing specialist award
- Hannah believes in observing customers queries and feedback to ensure maximum engagement
- Curio Labs has partnered with global publishing corporations such as The Wall Street Journal, The Guardian, The Washington Post, The Economist, and several others. This partnership offer reader a fun-filled robotics content
- Curio Labs offers a unique product that takes fact-based content from renowned authors and converts it into audiotapes
- Curio is an App that offers audio recordings of news and informative content
- You can also listen to Curio’s audios on the go as they come in a variety of different extensions and formats
- Taking customers questions and feedback helps Hannah understand how they feel about the product, which further helps in strategic planning
- Great customer engagement revolutionizes robotic journalism, which further helps companies in growing the acceptability rate of product
- An increased acceptability rate of your product helps you market to the masses
- Previously people were used to focusing on the impressions rate they got from running an ad. But Curio Labs focuses on the ultimate success rate derived from customers’ engagement campaigns. Hannah states that Curio Labs do not just target the customer traffic but keep them engaged throughout the journey
- Facebook, Instagram, and other social media platforms can also help to build audiences and attract traffic
- Do not create targeted posting and boosting to bring traffic. Instead, just invite like-minded people to social groups. Once you’ve done that use the data trends to interpret the audience’s interests
- Curio Labs is more focused on creativity than automation. Hannah believes that creatives can help you to properly position your organization
- Hire the right people to do the job. For Hannah, it’s not just about filling the positions in the company, but it is about engaging a resource that can add value to the system
- Ads are the soul of a business; in the last two years, Curio Lab’s creative team has designed over 25000 ad campaigns
- The combination of different themes, colors, and statements in ad sets can generate great results.
- Offering the right product and solution to the right audience is the key to growth
- Hannah advises newbies in the field of mobile growth and marketing to listen more and speaks less. Have conversations with your customers frequently, know about their choices and thought processes before you start planning for growth
- Hannah likes pancakes with blueberry and chocolate
- She likes to go on lunch with her friend Zac, with whom she enjoys having insightful business discussions
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Esther Shatz: Welcome to Mobile Growth & podcast. I’m joined here today by Hannah Parvaz. She’s been running things at Curio and I’ll let you talk that through in a second, but also, you’re pretty much synonymous with mobile growth. I think in 2019 you won Growth Marketer of the Year maybe. Did I make that up? I’m super excited to have you.
Hannah Parvaz: Yes, App Marketer of the Year.
Esther Shatz: [laughs] Yes, App Marketer of the Year. Hannah, why don’t you introduce yourself a bit? Tell us about what you do, your work at Curio.
Hannah Parvaz: Of course, yes. Well, thank you for having me. It’s really nice to be on with you. I’m Hannah, I look after growth for Curio. For the listeners, if you haven’t heard of Curio, we’re an audio journalism app. We partner with publications like The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Economist, and so on and curate the best of their writing and then bring it to life through audio with voice actors rather than with AI or anything like that. For Curio, our goal, what we really want to do is to help people become wiser, more empathetic, and more fulfilled.
We feel as a company that sharing the insights from the top writers and thought leaders in a super accessible way that we can help with that. Then for the growth side, in case the role growth sounds a bit fluffy which often people are like, “What does growth even mean?” I basically focus on different areas of the customer life cycle which need a little love. At the moment, we’re having a huge focus on paid acquisition so that we can drive a lot of traffic to the top of our funnel.
Esther Shatz: Awesome. I think, first of all, Curio, it’s an incredibly cool app, but I like that you said you’re bringing the human touch because it is really different to have AI narrating in a robotic way which often also has its flaws, the automatic texts whatever, but it’s almost like an audiobook discussion experience and I think just brings a much nicer side to news instead of thinking of it as this robotic fact, fact, fact.
Hannah Parvaz: Exactly. It really helps to bring out the human elements of it because, at the end of the day, anything in journalism or anything that’s happening in the world is down to humans [chuckles] and things that people have done. It’s about how we can connect with each other and come together and then rather–
Esther Shatz: I’m sorry, go on.
Hannah Parvaz: I was going to say rather than AI, we try to pair the voice actors with pieces that will suit them as well. If it’s a man that’s written it, we try and get a man to read the piece out, or if it’s a person of color we’ll try and find someone of the same ethnicity or nationality to read out so that you can get more of a feel for the piece rather than having just the same voice trying to cover all different stories.
Esther Shatz: It makes a lot of sense. I don’t know, you never think about this side of it. I love that this concept that there’s different writers, of course there are, and they bring different voices and you want it to cover that full experience. We’re definitely avoiding AI in that translation, but I know you do a lot of work around ad automization and bringing in a little more of the tech side. Do you want to tell us a bit more about that?
Hannah Parvaz: Yes. At Curio, we use a lot of signal-based automation through our advertising. We can touch on it a bit more later, but we’re basically always trying to maximize our usage of signals rather than micro-targeting. I think that’s an industry-wide trend at the moment. We’re becoming more and more reliant on automation to get the best results.
Esther Shatz: When you say signals, can you give me an example of what kind of signals you’re looking to optimize for?
Hannah Parvaz: Of course. Previously, people might have wanted to run ads for impressions, and often you’re actually built for the impressions, but what we want to do is optimize as far down the funnel as possible, and we want to optimize for our success metric. We want to create a broadened audience as possible so that we can feed as many events back into the audience and then let that do the targeting for us. I can tell you a bit more about the elements that we automate if you like.
Esther Shatz: Definitely. I think though you have a good point there and it’s something that actually we had Chang Chen from Otter.ai, and she said something that I think ties into that, which is the more you narrow down your audience, the more you’re focused on these demographics or this micro-targeting, you end up missing out on potential groups of people who should be audiences who haven’t been yet, areas where you didn’t know that you have that exposure. I really like that idea of saying it’s not the group, it’s the behavior. That’s what we’re surfacing. Yes, let’s drill in a little bit more. Tell me how it goes.
Hannah Parvaz: Well, I carry the bulk of our advertising at the moment is through Facebook. By Facebook, the whole portfolio–
Esther Shatz: Ecosystem.
Hannah Parvaz: Yes. The whole portfolio of placements, so Facebook, Instagram, their audience network, and everything. Obviously, Facebook and all of the advertising platforms are pushing for as much automation as possible. Probably because it’s the most beneficial for them and their algorithms, but also because they’ve seen the best results for it. To really leverage it, you have to have, again, broad audiences. It’s something that works really well on Facebook, but I haven’t necessarily seen the same success on other platforms. It just means that with a broad audience, that we’re keeping the audiences as large as possible.
How you do that is just by removing the detailed targeting, the interests, maybe even the age and the gender and targeting whole geographies, for example. Once we started seeing some success with this, we might’ve been targeting the UK, for example, we won even broader and stopped targeting specific placements. Rather than just targeting Facebook and Instagram separately, combine them both and then see what happens there. You don’t really need to create different ad sets and targeting for that. Actually on Facebook now you can create one ad and put within that one ad all of the different creatives for the placements in there. It will automatically serve the correct creative in the relevant placement.
We’ve removed all the targeting, we’re targeting all the placements. What we were still doing for a while, we’re still picking geographies out. Something that I’ve been testing out recently in the last couple of months especially has just been grouping all of our geographies together. Really letting the algorithm do everything itself. We’re really lucky actually that we’re a global product. We have subscribers all over the world in almost every country, except Antarctica. If we were confined to just one country, for example, I’ve worked in apps in the past which have been London only and things like this, I would still try to remove as much targeting as possible and target city-wide or as wide as you can go and just let the signals do the targeting for me.
Esther Shatz: When you’re going that broad and even taking away territory, geo, everything there, do you hit issues with the ability to customize the messaging per audience? Language is the most obvious one, I guess, that comes to mind, but also being able to show creatives that are maybe more regionally relevant in one place or the other, how do you tackle that balance when you’re going so broad?
Hannah Parvaz: Now we’ve taken more of a creative first approach rather than an audience-first approach. What that means is basically we have a huge backlog of creative concepts. Over the last couple of years, we’ve tested out 20 or 2,500 different ad combinations to find out which text is going to work with which headline, which is going to work with which image. We always have to have a lot of backlog that’s going to work with each other. Although I’m saying it’s creative first, that doesn’t mean that we’re disregarding our audience, it’s actually meaning that we’re doing the audience research upfront.
Just if, as an example, when I joined Curio, there was a load of ads flying around, they were mostly logo-led and tying into what was the company slogan at the time, which was intelligent audio for busy people. That was great. That was a really great slogan and it was very to the point, but there were other things that when I was comprehending testing them, they were scoring really low. People just didn’t understand what they meant. When I joined, I went away and spoke to loads of our users for weeks.
All of a sudden, I was having these conversations and hearing all of these amazing stories about people and how they’ve finally been able to connect with their family at dinner because they’ve been learning about George Orwell or politics teacher who was able to tap into his students’ interest because he’d listened to a bunch of stories about electric vehicles. When I was asking them, “But why is learning important to you? Why is sharing important to you? Why is this app, why are you using it ultimately?” They were saying, because to learn, then they get to share it and they will be able to connect with people more and seem more interesting.
If we take that approach and think about the ultimate reason why we get to– it starts to give us some brilliant messaging to start testing with. If you can start to spot these patterns through your conversations with your customers, you’re able to come up with a portfolio of motivators and barriers that will help people use your app and then start putting in all of these different creatives into a broader audience and seeing what works.
Esther Shatz: I would love to hear more about this process because it sounds like definitely, you’re doing a lot of testing. You have all the different combinations and everything that you’re doing out, which is probably I’d imagine pretty straightforward qualitative testing, but it sounds like you started at a point well before that with actually speaking to your users. How does that even go? How do you decide who to meet? How do you find them? It sounds like that was the first thing you did. How do you come in and just figure out qualitative insights and depth and everything like that?
Hannah Parvaz: There’s this amazing book that I would recommend everyone read called The Mom Test. It’s a really quick read, it’s just like a hundred or so pages. It really just tells you that people, when you’re talking to them, they don’t actually know what they want. You have to ask questions in a certain very open way to let them just come to you and tell you the information. For example, never lead in your interviews and things like this. When I joined Curio and when I’ve been at companies in the past, there’s usually some kind of database available, even if it’s very small.
I would literally just personally reach out to people on that database and ask them, “I’m doing some research, and I would love to get some feedback from you. I want to make the product the best product possible. I could really use your help.” You’d be surprised, a lot of people are really willing to help. Obviously, the more active someone is on your product, the more likely they are to help. You get amazing feedback from your heart-active users. I think that the feedback that you also get from people who have installed your app or signed up to your list and actually never used your product is just as valuable because then you can get the barriers and you can really tap into those and frame things in a way that might help them as well.
Esther Shatz: How do you keep from falling down the rabbit hole of I’d imagine there’s endless directions to take it and you’re probably getting so many signals from so many people. Where do you know that you find the jabs and find the things that you actually want to pull out and take further and use that you think is wider spread than just the person telling you?
Hannah Parvaz: Of course. First of all, it can’t just be based on three or four conversations. It will usually be based on– I like to have a minimum of 10 conversations to validate something, then you can score it in a percentage. Of course, you can do a percentage with any numbers, but I like to say like 90% and you do tons and tons of conversations about a topic and you start to spot these patterns. From those patterns, you can then start to quantify it. I’m very old school, I’ll make a spreadsheet and put in all of the conversations and pull out manually all of the topics that people have spoken about that they’re interested in one thing and not the other, or that they use the product in a certain way. I might find that 80% of people are saying the same thing, then this is something that we can tap into.
Esther Shatz: Then you find the areas that are starting to really come up in that field and you’re seeing are more relevant. How do you translate that into a creative process? How do you take that and move into, now we’re turning this into ads, and we’re turning this into a process, or we’re going to see what we have? Talk me through that.
Hannah Parvaz: [laughs] With this specifically, you get sometimes amazing quotes from people that you can use. I’ve often used direct quotes from people in my ad copy, which has been really beneficial, and then as well as, if you can find someone who’s a great copywriter to try and distill what the messaging is into five or six concise words, then you’re on to a winner. Don’t put all your eggs in one basket. You have to come up with different variations. One of our best performing ads says, become the most interesting person in the room, which came from all of these user conversations that we were having. It came from people saying, “I want to seem more interesting. I want to convey that I’m interesting to people. I want to connect with people and have conversations.”
From that, we tried lots of things. We tried to become the most interested person in the room. We tried lots and lots of different things but ended up with having become the most interesting person in the room. It’s interesting to see the responses to this because some people think interesting means smartest and so on. It’s really interesting always to see how people recognize that line because we’ve really led without one for a long time. Overall, to fit it into the creative process, we take combinations of user quotes, customer quotes and pair them with great copywriting.
Esther Shatz: I think a lot of times user feedback is thought of as a product domain. That’s what we’re using to enhance our product and that’s why we’re speaking to existing users. I love that you’re taking it further back into the very top stage of the funnel. Do you work with products on this? If you’re changing your messaging around bringing people in, have you found the right synergy of how you communicate that once the actual download occurs?
Hannah Parvaz: I think growth itself is a product role. It’s not necessarily just a marketing role, it’s the cross-section between both. We’re having these customer conversations and it’s not just marketing copy we’re getting out of it and marketing I guess. This is where we’re finding out what they want from the product and so on as well. This is where we find out that people are always telling their friends about it and that we should develop a referral scheme and things like this. There’ll always be product-led things, but there should also be growth-led elements as well within the product.
Of course, we make sure that the whole journey, the whole user life cycle, we try and make sure that this works all really well together. Of course, using Facebook ads, this optimizes really well. Whatever you’re doing in your funnel and further down your funnel gets optimized from the top because our success metric will be purchased, for example.
Esther Shatz: Now this takes me to a question I keep finding myself coming to whenever I’m speaking to anyone, which is, we talked about the idea of ad changes that are coming in, seems like they just announced early spring, so I’m taking that as March, but when we’re focused on signal and behavioral elements, what happens in the world of automation when we’re blocked from a lot of those that we maybe have been more accustomed to having until now?
Hannah Parvaz: Definitely. I think with iOS 14, as I said, there’s a push towards moving towards more and more automation. That means creatives are more important than ever. We’re losing and have already lost a lot of interest-based targeting and we’re going to be losing a lot more as well as some of the attribution and so on. What I’m most excited about is being able to really take a creative first approach again. Overall, with iOS 14, I think one of the most exciting new things that have come out is that Facebook have released a new– without sounding like a Facebook fan girl. [laughs]
Facebook have announced a new function called the automated app ads, which were born out of the movement of potential signal loss going forward. They’re really moving with the industry as a whole, following on from Google’s automated app campaigns, for example. What we’re seeing is that the platforms– they think that they have such powerful algorithms that they’re able to do better targeting than we ever could anyway.
Esther Shatz: You’re saying trust in them, let them do their thing. They’re doing it at scale. They’ve got the tools to invest in it.
Hannah Parvaz: I think with these platforms as well, they want the most money out of you, which means they want to provide the best service possible so that you keep on spending. It’s in their interest to provide scalable successful algorithms too.
Esther Shatz: I think I agree with what you’re saying about it’s really going back to creative first because now the main– I think the thing that really filters the users who are coming in the way you’re really most able to approach users when you’re not, you guys haven’t really ever been there, but for companies that have really relied on, say, a lookalike audience and purely focused on the specific demographics, now you’re allowing your creatives to do that filtering in a sense, speaking to the people who should be coming in and making sure that they take the behaviors you’re looking for them to take, not just fast news and then if that’s not what they’re actually getting, are they really going to invest in the platform?
I think there’s definitely going to be the balance of, they want to make creatives that are catchy that get the impressions, that get the clicks, that get everything else that you’re measuring at the top of the funnel, but these are the main tools I have to filter for the right users. Sometimes that’s going to mean sacrificing some of those top-of-the-funnel metrics in order to really get the quality.
Hannah Parvaz: Indeed with the new IDFA changes, the predicted opt-in is about 5% to 10%. With the ones that opt out, we’re only going to be able to see one event anymore. That might just be installed, that might just be purchased, and so on. What we need to do is try and start sending some customer events through and then prioritizing them in order of importance. Your customer event might be a combination event of doing a core action as well as doing a revenue metric and then trying to optimize towards that rather than just the purchase, for example.
Esther Shatz: Do you see this changing the structure of growth on growth marketing teams moving forward?
Hannah Parvaz: I think that there’s going to have to be a lot more modeling perhaps, maybe a bigger concentration on data analysis, even as if there wasn’t enough already, but [chuckles] having more specialty there, then also as well as just a bigger concentration on the creative. At the moment, growth marketing teams are going to have very close connections with their designers and their creative teams, they’re going to become more and more intertwined as time is going on, I think, and becoming one and the same again.
Esther Shatz: I’d say maybe there’s a leg up in the fact that when you’re focused on automation as your structure, you’re already cutting out a lot of what is going to be missing, which is you’re less involved in that manual optimization of the people who are logging in every day and switching bids and switching everything and already started enhancing the creative side because that’s been your main control. I’d imagine the more automation you have, the more data science has been coming into place anyway. It’s more changing the definitions rather than starting again from scratch.
I can say there are definitely companies that are about to rebuild their teams from scratch. People who have been relying on older school ways, let’s call it, of campaign optimization. I want to jump back into integratives for a second. You mentioned that you have a message that’s been top-performing for a while, be the most interesting person in the room. How often do creatives need to be refreshed? Is it that it’s just continued to win and that’s why it’s still there, or is that until something happens, we’re not even going to check? How do you decide on the cadence there?
Hannah Parvaz: We’re constantly testing new creatives because we want something to beat it. That can’t be the best thing. There’s always going to be something better. Our creative strategy is focused around working with finding something that appeals to the most people and something that you’ve identified in your brand as a pattern of usage for your customers and then how you can tap into that. Then, at the same time, we have to think about how we can iterate and optimize on that specific creative.
For example, with our becoming the most interesting person in the room ad, we’re always trying different versions of it, different color overlay, maybe changing the placement of logos and texts and adding phone screens and things like this to see is there something that can tip over? We want to add the iteration element in and then optimize on that as a business as usual creative. Then at the same time is that. Then we also have to come up with whole new creative directions to test alongside it. You’re always hoping they find a new winner, but settling–
Esther Shatz: Have it yet? [laughs]
Hannah Parvaz: Yes, but at the same time, if you haven’t found a new winner, you’re settling with having some people who wouldn’t necessarily resonate with your business as usual creative, resonate with something new that you’re testing, even if you can’t scale it.
Esther Shatz: I find in testing, I get the same way where I get really attached to a specific creative that I’m sure is the most brilliant thing we’ve ever put out and devastated when it flops miserably. I’m curious to hear if you found something in your research and you really thought you had a direction or you really thought you had something, they hate it. What’s been the biggest shock? What happened in the field that didn’t happen in the theory?
Hannah Parvaz: We did a bunch of Motivate from Barrier analyses last year and we came up with four or five different themes that we were going to test and we ran a split test. The one that we were most surprised about not succeeding was around trust. I think maybe it was because of the time it was being run and things like this, and this fake news being thrown around, but because we’re often told that people come to Curio from a place of trust and that they know that the stories that are on there are going to be correct and fact-checked and everything.
Whenever we were running that as an acquisition creative, it just didn’t work well because people still associate journalism often with fake news. This just didn’t perform well at all even though from an audience perspective, we were pretty convinced that that would work.
Esther Shatz: To tell you specifically around trust, it’s so interesting you say that because there’s two other areas where I’ve seen that our clients really think or we know that trust is so important to them which are children’s apps, anything related to content that parents will be downloading for their children and finance apps when people are putting their money somewhere they want to be pretty secure. Something about trust messaging, I think anytime you’re explicitly calling out the trust, you’re almost raising the flag for somebody to be like, “Should I not trust this? You’re saying you’re trustworthy, does that mean because there’s–“
You’re almost reminding them to mistrust before you say trust. We spend a lot of time in these cases looking for signals that would indicate trust that don’t speak about it at all. It’s so interesting to hear that you’re seeing the same thing that the callout is the reason and it is one of the reasons you chose us, but you don’t want me to tell you that that’s the reason you chose us just yet. Super interesting.
Hannah Parvaz: Psychologically as well it’s like when someone tells you, “Trust me on this one.” You’re going, “Should I not trust you on the other one then?”
I think that one is just something that we need to creative shop a bit more and try and distill that message into some words that don’t use the word trust.
Esther Shatz: Yes, exactly. Get the signal across without the statement. I guess my last question here is, how do you grow a creative department and the process sustainably? Obviously, there’s a ton of manual labor involved in really researching and testing. How do you make that an ongoing process and one that can scale comfortably as the business grows, as budgets grow?
Hannah Parvaz: Because every company has to have a different level of creatives, it’s going to be different for every company. Obviously, my experiences are just what I’ve experienced. For us, we’ve had to onboard an agency because we’ve been going through so many creatives. That’s really helped us with our flow. We’re working with them and we get at least six new creative directions per month. Then with that, we are constantly testing and feeding back into them and iterating.
Then from an internal department standpoint, we’ve scaled out to have someone looking after the brand as well and making sure that everything is congruent from that perspective as well. From a department standpoint, you’re always looking for people who are going to fill holes rather than just hiring to hire. I’ve never been a person that would just hire because it sounds like the right role to do. If you’re spotting a weakness in your team, then that’s an area that you can hire for rather than making someone do something that they’re not necessarily going to excel at.
Esther Shatz: Outside of growth, [chuckles] a good tip in general of this, instead of trying to fit something into a box where it doesn’t belong, find the piece that fits in the box and maximize what you have where it belongs. Totally agree.
Hannah Parvaz: Because you’ve often hired people for a reason, if they’re not doing good work, it’s probably because you’re giving them the wrong work to do.
Esther Shatz: I totally agree. Especially if the attitude is in place and you know this is somebody who cares about their work. Our company also I can say one of the philosophies we have is– we call them mavens, we call ourselves mavens. You identify the potential of a maven. That’s first and foremost, we figure out where you fit and where we maximize, and maybe it’s not exactly what we thought we were looking for, but once we find a maven, we try to customize our role around that. I think it’s a really important point. Ready to move into a quick fire round?
Hannah Parvaz: Oh gosh, yes, surely.
Esther Shatz: If you could give just one tip to somebody who’s brand new entering the world of mobile growth marketing, what would that be?
Hannah Parvaz: Make sure that you’re always listening. Make sure you’re having as many conversations as possible with people in the industry and also if you have managed to get a role in a company with the customers of the company as well, and documenting all of the conversations that you’re having.
Esther Shatz: Favorite growth resource.
Hannah Parvaz: Favorite growth resource. Somewhere I’m getting information from, Growth Mentor. That’s a platform I mentor on, but I also am a mentee on. You can go and talk to people about any problems that you’re having, or any challenges that you’re facing. It’s direct one-on-one feedback and education. It’s really great.
Esther Shatz: That’s awesome. Assuming life goes back to normal sometime soon and you get to see people face-to-face, who in the growth world would you most want to take for lunch and why?
Hannah Parvaz: The person from the growth and marketing world that I’d most like to go out for dinner with or have a conversation with in person is someone I know called Zach. We’ve been connecting a lot online lately, and we’ve started a clubhouse room together and things like this, which is an ongoing thing focused on everybody who wants to start a brand. It would be really nice to just meet up in person and be able to discuss everything that we’ve been discussing online.
Esther Shatz: Most important question. What is your favorite type of pancake?
Hannah Parvaz: My favorites type of pancake. I love some pancakes that have blueberries cooked within them and then also, it’s a bit rogue, but then I want chocolate sauce on top as well.
Esther Shatz: You go for both blueberry and chocolate sauce.
Hannah Parvaz: The [crosstalk]–
Esther Shatz: I like it a lot. [laughs] Amazing. Hannah, where can people find you if they want to learn more and see what you’re doing?
Hannah Parvaz: I would love to hear from anyone if anyone has any questions or anything. You can reach me on LinkedIn or on Twitter. My handle on Twitter is just Hannah Parvaz, and on LinkedIn, you can just search my name. I’d love to hear from you.
Esther Shatz: Amazing. Thank you very much, Hannah, for telling us automation, creative, we covered a pretty wide range. It was awesome. Thank you for taking the time and happy almost birthday.
Hannah Parvaz: Thank you and thank you for having me. It’s been wonderful talking to you.