In this episode of Mobile Growth & Pancakes, Jonathan Fishman (subbing in for our regular host Esther Shatz) is joined by Novel Rahman, Sr. User Acquisition Manager at Playco. Novel discusses the pros and cons of not having to deal with IDFA deprecation for instant (in-platform) games. He also shares his tips on growing instant games through content marketing and leveraging social platforms like Facebook.
Check out all the other episodes of Mobile Growth & Pancakes here.
To connect with Novel:
Listen to the full episode here:
“It’s definitely worth AB testing and see what the performance looks like because [on Facebook] the user experience is so seamless”Novel Rahman
- Novel Rahman is currently running Playco’s user acquisition efforts for some games and initiatives and is serving as their marketing lead on a few products. Playco’s main growth area is social play and they focus on social platforms that everyday users are already using to develop unique and fun gaming experiences.
- Every platform is now recognizing the value of hosting a gaming environment within their social media channels. Instant games are a great way to do that. But there are a lot of legal questions with Google Play and the App Store trying to prevent companies from having an app store within an app store.
- Starting in performance marketing is a great path into mobile marketing as you get the opportunity to work with multiple partners, multiple products, and multiple verticals. You also get to understand firsthand how affiliates and performance marketers grow a campaign in different channels or do things differently to improve top-funnel metrics.
- Since Playco’s games are HTML-based in-browser apps, it becomes easier to market on the platform they are hosted on because this model removes several points of UX friction. Facebook ads make it easier for Playco to be more creative and cultivate an audience by exploiting every facet of the platform.
- Growth hacking, for Novel, is understanding the marketplace, the product, and the target audience. This knowledge allows you to be creative with your toolkit and craft an unconventional growth strategy that puts you a leg ahead of your competition.
- The advantage of being an instant game company that’s not using IDFA data is that they don’t have to deal with attribution issues that the rest of the industry is struggling with. Their key challenges come from the market reacting to IDFA deprecation on iOS.
- Use landing pages and other ways to pre-qualify users before they are presented with a game. Videos are not a great way to qualify users on Facebook because those users don’t watch them beyond three to five seconds. Instant games have to captivate users first with fictional (storytelling)/non-fictional experiences.
Novel Rahman: It’s not a very static role or the environment because the whole market’s evolving, the technology is evolving, if you’re a specific company, the way the company grows, and so on. I think it’s a very dynamic atmosphere, which is the fun part for me. I love organized chaos. For me, it’s the greatest because every day is unique, every day is different. I’m learning constantly, versus being in one type of role.
Esther Shatz: Welcome to Mobile Growth & Pancakes, a podcast by Storemaven. We break down how and why mobile apps grow. In each episode, we invite a mobile growth expert onto the show to break down a specific mobile growth strategy, how it worked, why it worked, and what they would do differently. I’m your host, Esther Schatz.
Jonathan Fishman: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Mobile Growth & Pancakes. I’m your host, Jonathan Fishman, VP Marketing here at Storemaven. Today, I have with me, Novel Rahman, who’s a senior user acquisition manager at Playco. Hey, Novel.
Novel: Hey, and how are you?
Jonathan: What’s up? Do you want to introduce yourself a bit?
Novel: Yes, for sure. Hey, guys, my name is Novel. I’m currently senior user acquisition manager at Playco, currently running our user acquisition efforts for a few of our games initiatives and marketing lead on a few products. I’m super excited to be here today and really discuss a little marketing, which is what we all love.
Jonathan: Awesome. I know that Playco is a bit different in terms of the publishing methodology of mobile games and specifically, putting in an emphasis on instant games. Can you tell us a bit more about that?
Novel: Yes. I think Playco is a very unique company, especially in the gaming market, just specifically, because of the way we acquire and really serve our users and the platforms that we really utilize, versus others.
First and foremost, Playco, really our main focus or our main growth area really is social play. What that means is we utilize social platforms that everyday users are already using such as Facebook, LINE, Zoom, et cetera. We develop very unique and fun gaming experiences on these platforms so users are able to connect with their friends and play together on the platform or on their social media platforms without having to leave, which is very unique and different from the traditional gaming market because usually, it’s within an iOS or Android package. Usually, you have to leave the platform to play the game independently, separately from the platform itself.
Second to that, a lot of times it’s very difficult to connect with friends and play because if your friends aren’t on the same app, but if they aren’t connected in the community, you’re not able to really engage. I think that’s why for us, we have a really unique product because A, it’s a fun game to play and B, it’s so easy to play with your friends who are already online. I think it’s just a really unique experience that we try to deliver to our clientele.
Jonathan: Great. I think I saw that some of these games were also available on Zoom. As a [unintelligible 00:03:18], right?
Novel: Yes. We’ve had a few successful games live on Facebook for some time now and Zoom has been a new addition, in terms of our platform expansion. It went live a few months ago and we have two games live, that we’ve developed on there and growing rapidly. Currently, that’s our latest addition to our stacking.
Jonathan: Awesome. I definitely think Playco is a very forward-thinking company because instant games, I see it as the future. In the world where you have to install a game to play it, or basically to install apps, I think it’s going to end at some point. I’m not sure when and where the tech would be there.
Of course, we know that instant games exist on the Android ecosystem with Google Play. On the App Store, it’s still not there, on iOS, but I definitely think people want to play games wherever they are, on the platform they are at the moment, without doing anything heavy, such as installing the game. That’s pretty exciting.
Can you talk a bit about your path and how you got into mobile marketing?
Novel: Yes, definitely. Actually, before I do that, I do want to quickly just mention or quickly acknowledge your point there. I definitely agree. I think the great part about it is we work in partnership with the platform itself. Every platform is now recognizing the value of hosting a gaming environment within its social media channels. I think for us, it’s a great fit because then we can really capitalize on these opportunities and really just build unique experiences, to your exact point.
Jonathan: Yes, just one other point there. I heard recently about the Netflix getting into mobile gaming as well.
Jonathan: There’s a ton of benefits for any platform that gets users to engage with it a lot, such as Netflix, Facebook, Zoom, LINE, everyone, to keep users in the platform. The thing is, Instant Games is a great way to do that. The thing is, there’s a lot of legal question there with the App Store and Google Play, and a lot of them are trying to prevent some companies from having an app store within an app store. We’ll see where that goes but it definitely seems like the world is moving there slowly.
Novel: Yes, definitely and obviously, especially in mature markets, where the majority of the online viewership, especially for this genre, is on mobile, [chuckles] versus desktop now, especially for games. It’s just in the end, a really good opportunity for the entire ecosystem to evolve in that direction.
Novel: To your latter question, I guess, about my path to mobile marketing. I actually come from a business background, but I got into marketing because I didn’t see myself doing accounting or finance or anything of that nature. I really just enjoyed marketing, in general.
Initially, I was actually in the agency called Wonder Media. I was in performance marketing there and then from there, I migrated into doing user acquisition on the product side. It’s a little bit of a unique path, there’s really no focus but right into the UA and then grow within.
I think for me, it was a great launching pad because, on the agency side, you get the opportunity to really work with multiple partners, multiple products, multiple verticals, and because it’s more of a marketplace environment, you get to work with demand and supply, to really understand exactly how the landscape is working, what’s working, where and so on. I think for me, it was a great experience. I was there for about five years or so, and go to different roles but it was a great experience. You get to understand firsthand how affiliates and how performance marketers attack a campaign in terms of getting it to grow, like growth hack in different channels or doing the same thing in different ways to improve [unintelligible 00:07:11] metrics.
Those things really understand like, how are the gurus in the industry doing it and then connecting that back to the user acquisition partners that we work with, understanding goals and products that really match the two sides.
From there, I moved into the UA side, so the company called WGAMES, and so basically, a social casino-based company. I was there on the marketing side as well, in a similar role. It was a slots game, slots app essentially. It was a good segue from I guess, from the agency into the app world, just from the product side, because now I was able to understand “Okay, what actually is happening under the hood?” which I think is super important.
I think with those two experiences combined, it was a really good, I think, holistic understanding of like, “Hey, how does the actual market work end-to-end?” I’m very data-driven. After that, I did a master’s program in marketing management and analytics, and then from there, I transitioned into Playco.
Playco, I guess, to one of your earlier questions, it’s a very I guess, different company, culture. Whereas, I think a lot of gaming companies have divisions of departments where you have marketing folks that are handling more UA-based, or marketing initiatives. They have a VI team that’s handling data analysis, and your live ops, and community management, and all these things.
We also have similar structures and teams in place but we’re encouraged here to really stretch beyond our role and really understand our environment, so we have access to really any of those things. For me, it was a great playing field to understand and get in, and not just do marketing, but see the net impact of how a campaign works on the product side, and know what the analytics are, and really dissect end-to-end.
I think it was good automation of my background, and having a platform to really utilize all levers to be a more effective marketer. I think that’s a really cool experience. I really appreciate [inaudible 00:09:22].
Jonathan: Great and we chatted about the fact that there’s a lot of levers to grow, besides just programmatic in the normal suspects basically, with UA, which is if you go to an average mobile game company, most of their budgets would go to Facebook, Google, a selection of different ad networks and that’s it. [clears throat] Some people go into influencers these days.
I know that you guys are doing a lot of creative things so, how do you think you can diversify basically, UHNs to get into new audiences and new markets?
Novel: Yes, that’s a good question. [unintelligible 00:10:09] based on my experience and my career, definitely obviously, Facebook and UAC eat up 60% plus, not more of the budget, and then you have everything else, diversified into different channels. For us, it’s a little bit unique, because we are an on-platform-based or HTML5-based game, it’ll inevitably be easier to always market on the platform.
What I mean by that is, if it’s a Facebook game, marketing through Facebook ads, simply because users are already in the medium. Otherwise, there are additional friction points. Having users log into your Facebook app if they’re coming from, let’s say, UAC or Snap or any other channel. That goes the same across all our different platforms and games.
I think for us, it’s a little bit different in that regard, but there are a lot of, I think, advantages of that. Because we’re working with Facebook specifically, we’re able to actually, be more creative in the way we target users, acquire users and really cultivate the user life cycle, I would say, versus an app. They just don’t have the access to it.
I think for us, there are two approaches. One is about really taking advantage of the platform itself, and fully stretching to all cylinders there. All then from there looking beyond to say, “Hey, are there other ways to growth hack and then go to find users to come through, and so on.
Jonathan: Do you view yourself as a growth hacker or what do you think about the term? [chuckles]
Novel: I like to believe so, [chuckles] I think. I think growth hacking has many definitions and applications of things. I would like to say that [chuckles] I believe that I’m a growth hacker. When I say that, I think there are different ways.
Growth hacking, I think for me is, not just understanding the marketplace, but also understanding what your product is, understanding what your user target audience is, understanding what your propensity curves are, your proxy events, all of these different things that you have in your toolset. To be able to connect, craft together a strategy that is not common or that is not conventional, in my opinion.
For me, a lot of that is, what I always try to push, especially in Playco as well. Let’s say for marketing on Facebook, from our Facebook games, now I can run a AAA campaign, sure but how else can I be creative with the tools and access that I have, to try and get ahead of the industry or get ahead of the curve, or competitors? It’s obviously a very competitive space, and so on. I think that for me, that’s the definition [inaudible 00:13:07]
Jonathan: Cool. Without giving away any secrets, can you give us an example of something creative?
Novel: Yes, for sure. I think, very high level, I think, like Facebook, let’s talk about Facebook. I think it’s a very common platform that everyone’s familiar with. You have various different types of campaigns and Facebook is great because obviously, we can slice and dice and really hyper-target it, and find your niche audiences.
Jonathan: Oh by the way. The fact that you’re an instant game company, gives it an advantage because for a mobile game company is now, the deprecation of the IDFA or the access to the IDFA basically, prevents them from doing hyper-targeting, the way they used to before. For you guys it’s different?
Novel: Yes. Both pros and cons. [chuckles] The pros of this is, with the programmatic landscape, the way it’s moving, and obviously, privacy first. Just the fingerprinting attribution distress that is currently undergoing, so there’s a lot that’s, I think, happening in the mobile ecosystem, that as I’m sure a lot of developers and gaming companies are very concerned with, and rightfully so.
I think for us, we have a little bit of an upside, I would say. [chuckles] Because we are within the platform itself, it’s not an external user. What I mean by that is, our games are marketed to Facebook users themselves versus an app trying to get into a Facebook user’s [unintelligible 00:14:43].
For us, there is a batch that were, we don’t have to deal with attribution, especially for iOS, that the entire industry right now is dealing with. Now, saying that, obviously, there are challenges because the ecosystem at the end of the day is really based on an auction system. We definitely feel the pressure, let’s say for Android CPM because everyone right now is obviously beefing up with Android users, [chuckles] obviously. We feel the indirect pressure, I would say, on some of our bids, or some of our campaign types and markets, and so forth. It really is a result of just the market reacting to the current condition, versus access to some of the private [unintelligible 00:15:28] are facing against.
Jonathan: Cool. We’re talking about creative ways on Facebook, specifically?
Novel: Yes. Like I was saying, I think on Facebook, one way part, obviously I think, AAA is a great autonomous feature, similar to UAC, to really run app-based campaigns, and so on. I think a challenge of that mechanism, is that you really take away the creativity, or the ability to really design marketing BEPS, whether that’d be on a market, whether that be on a user segment, or so on.
For me, first and foremost, I think it’s understanding what your product and user lifecycle looks like. To really understand, okay, who is your target audience? What’s the average session time? Understanding different milestones or different user journey points, that a user progresses through or are trying to get, what are proxy events? All these things, first, because then you know, if you get a user to X point, there’s a probability of Y% of them getting to your ultimate point, whether it be IEP, whether it be ad monetization, or whatever the end target is. I think, when you reach for the end literally having data to back it up, especially on a platform, you’re going to have to pay a hefty fee or fee for it.
If you understand what your competitive curve looks like and different proxy events, all those things then you can get a little bit creative. I think with Facebook, if you understand your gaming ecosystem very well, then you can start getting creative because instead of running a AAA campaign, or an install campaign and waiting to learn, and so on, you can make bets. You can say, “Hey, instead of me targeting for installs for two weeks, and then I’ll move it up to train the algo, I can go out the gate and bet X dollars to pay for a user that gets to level 50, or whatever the respective bill is.
I know that of those 50 users, 10% of them will progress to purchasing tech or whatever. I’m just making these things up, for broad application. If you understand it, you can then go and really hack together a unique marketing bet on Facebook, for example, but otherwise, if you didn’t know, you’d have to start from scratch and see how it reacts and so on. When I say growth hacking, that’s I think, what I’m referring to, using Facebook [inaudible 00:18:04].
Jonathan: Cool. You mentioned to me in a conversation before this episode, something about content marketing and using content marketing also as another way to diversify, basically, your UA methods. What do you do in those areas?
Novel: Definitely. I think, when I say content marketing, again, I think there’s a lot of applications and definitions of it. I think when I say content market, or when we were talking about it earlier, I was really referring to the usage of landing pages or pre-qualifying experiences for users before they are presented with the game. Again, going back to the Facebook example, and it’s definitely worth maybe testing and seeing what the performance looks like.
I find, especially on Facebook, because the user experience is so seamless– And I’m not talking just about Facebook. I’m talking in general for any gaming app. Because it’s so seamless because you see an app, you click, and if you go out to the app store, for example, download and play and so on. It seems in a way where if you were running a video ad, for example, the average view time of a video is between, I would say, 5 to 10 seconds. I think when it initially came out, it was very strong, but now the market’s awareness. You can really tell what is an ad and what is not, and if it’s disingenuous, or if you just are not interested, I scroll right through, or within 5 seconds turn. It’s not really a lot of time, to deliver other value-added products, or really explain what it is.
I think what we see most commonly happening, and Facebook is really good at it, is they’ll basically, show impressions to– Based on user likelihood. If the user already has other Slots apps installed, they’ll be served with more slots apps because they know the users are already aware of the vertical, the game style, and so on. There’s not a lot of knowledge awareness needed, whereas if you’re doing something completely new, it’s very hard to relate in 5 seconds or 10 seconds, “What is it?” What is a puzzle game to a slots user, for example? I think that’s one barrier to the programmatic environment.
When I say content marketing, I think it’s a unique way because especially on social platforms, we’re seeing this new trend or emerging trend that, if you can captivate a user using content that could be fictional or nonfictional, depending on what the goal is, usually of a much longer screen time or share voice versus just running a video ad, for example. I think it’s worth AB testing in my opinion, instead of running traditional video ads for [unintelligible 00:21:00] campaigns or [unintelligible 00:21:01] whatever the case is, to try and take a user flow landing page.
I’ll go back to the [unintelligible 00:21:07] on the slots example, right?
Novel: A big part of Slots I think is, obviously, you’re tailored to social casinos and folks that are casino goers and gamblers and so on. Everyone knows more or less what the app is or what the game is, whether there real money or a social casino environment. Imagine taking users to a landing page where you prequalify them using, again, fictional or nonfiction depending on what it is.
Let’s say, it’s a real money casino app, right?
Novel: You actually have winners that are winning real money, that’s in the US or the UK, wherever it is. Imagine, instead of having just a video ad talking about the game, making an appealing content ad that said, “Winner of the week wins $1 million” or whatever the reward is. I’m sure it’s going to captivate a lot more users that are in that genre because like “Oh, [unintelligible 00:22:03] $1 million?” are likely to learn more.
On that page, now you have a one-to-one opportunity, really sell “Okay, hey, here’s our winner, here’s how they won. You can win, too. Here’s an app download and play right” or whatever the case is. I think it’s basically preconditioning a user to the value of the app in a much more captivated experience versus just a 10-second video ad.
When they’re playing, now they’re already in that mindset to play and get to that $1 million goals. That’s already preset before they start playing versus the otherwise, where if they’re just coming into play, they may play for a little bit and start comparing to other apps that, “Oh, I like, I don’t like,” getting so unsure and so forth. That’s what I was referring to in terms of content marketing, as an example.
I’ve definitely seen my personal experience. Obviously, it’s more expensive, 100% because you’re adding additional flow. You’re going to have a drop off in fixing rates and all these things but I think, ultimately– That’s what I was saying earlier is really understanding your ecosystem end-to-end because, yes, CPI ad on Facebook may cost you $3.00 to $5.00 and a landing page maybe $10.00 to $12.00 let’s say, but what is the ultimate CPA? If you’re optimizing your KPI towards, let’s say, an RoW– And usually, it’s LTV driven. [chuckles] If it’s an RoW ad or whatever the case is, I think, it’s good to understand your flow because regardless of what you’re paying upfront, it’s all about what your CPA is in terms of payback. If you can map the entire funnel, sometimes I’ll link it back, you’ll find wins where even though you’re paying a lot up top, that user quality is significantly higher for it to back out end-to-end and then so on. That’s just an example. I know I talked for a long time but [inaudible 00:23:45].
Jonathan: No, it’s really insightful and I couldn’t agree more. With Storemaven, we start our way with AB testing app store pages and basically testing how that influences different users, to install and to do other things within the app, depending on if it’s a game or an app or is it registration or finishing a certain level or making an inner purchase. We definitely saw that the creatives and the messaging on the app or page affect what users do within the app. I agree with you saying it’s a trend because I see a lot of these flows of directing users to landing pages [clears throat] or the ad creative itself being just much more contentful and trying to reach high-quality users that way.
I think it’s becoming a trend now because before, I don’t know, let’s say a year and a half ago, before iOS 14.5, most marketers that were focusing or UA folks were focusing on iOS, had the benefit of having Facebook reaching these users for them. They just told them “I want more users that made an in-app purchase. Here are they.” They reported who these users were to Facebook, Facebook did their magic, enter Black Box, create the lookalike audience, and voila, you have high-quality users.
Now you have to do this work. You have to influence users or find a funnel basically, to reach, to convince these high-quality users and content is a great way to do that. I see a lot of these flows recently of funnelling users through to a landing page and making them more educated and more aware of different parts of the game or the app, and then probably see a much higher average quality for these users in terms of LTV retention or just basic engagement with the valuable parts of their games and apps lead to, at the end of the day, revenues.
They have even examples from conversations they had with people outside of gaming, for example, Twitch. Everybody knows them as an app to basically, watch other people playing games and streaming themselves but they have a lot more than that in their app. They do podcasting and there are people watching Sunday football on Twitch. That’s less known but creating these funnels and leading users through that and creating that expectation or at least the desire for these users to find these areas in the app, lead to much higher quality for these campaigns that are basically, probably, measured by how many users are engaging with these parts of the app. It’s a really insightful point that you brought up.
Novel: Yes, definitely, and Storemaven is great and I’ve used it before. I think it’s a great way to get, especially for live ops or if you’re doing any ASO, ASA [unintelligible 00:26:49] initiatives, to really understand, “Okay, if I change the imagery or the messaging or the description or just overall feature placements and so on the app store, what would be a reaction?” Like doing a control test to understand any lift or net impacts and so on.
I think Storemaven is a great platform for designing those types of experiments and so on, which is very important because especially for app marketers. Once the user leaves an ad and gets to the app store, if you’re not seeing a high-ranking score or if the App Store page isn’t appealing and so on, usually we say very high bounce rate. Just being able to design a full user experience I think, is super cool.
Jonathan: Yes and thank you. I think that now with iOS 15, basically, introduced a few features such as custom product pages, suddenly you have more than one page you can use with different campaigns and ads. Before that, you had to choose. Usually, folks aimed for either the lowest common denominator or they had to choose, “Okay, I want to target that audience and I’ll make my page appealing for that audience” and that’s it. “I have to give up on other audiences.” Now, you don’t have to do that anymore. You can create a funnel for each and every audience you want to acquire, and that basically allows them to acquire more high-quality users.
Novel: Yes and that’s actually was a great point. I think creating a customer-centric marketing experience is so key, right?
Novel: That stems from the way you target the cords of users, you’re targeting up top, the ads they’re seeing, the apps for a page, as you mentioned. Ultimately when they enter the game, really using deep links and so on to really enrich that experience, I think will go a long way versus doing very broad-based experiences. That’s all I’m saying.
Jonathan: Yes, for sure. Awesome. That was very insightful. We are about to run out of time, so I wanted to ask you a few questions we ask all of our guests. First of all, if there is someone that is an aspiring mobile growth marketer, they want to get into mobile marketing today, do you have one tip to give them?
Novel: Yes, it’s a good question. First and foremost, I think it’s a very fun field so I think having a passion for it, I think is very important because every day is different. It’s not a very static role or the environment because the whole market’s evolving, the technology’s evolving. If you’re a specific company, the way the company grows, and so on, so I think it’s a very dynamic atmosphere, which is the fun part for me.
I love organized chaos. For me, it’s a great experience because every day is unique, every day is different. I’m learning constantly versus being in one type of role. I think for me, advice to anyone coming into the market or to the industry would be really just, first, make sure that’s an environment you want to be in and really understand and accept that reality. [chuckles] The second is, just I guess, the hunger for growth and learning.
I think you can get obsolete and outdated very quickly if you’re just going to sit on the sidelines. I think it’s always about pushing the boundaries, understanding what the others are doing, what’s working, what’s not, and trying new experiments, and so on, to really connect, to learn, and grow. I think those things are very important [unintelligible 00:30:23]
Jonathan: Cool, and that’s a segue into the next question which is, what’s your favorite content or mobile marketing content that you read?
Novel: Yes, for sure. I like to read a lot of TechRadar, Crunchbase, just to see who’s moving up and down, [chuckles] in terms of what they’re doing, just a signal, like “Hey, who the next mover is going to be?” and so on. I also like to do a lot of Facebook ad libraries, digging to see what other competitors and so on, what they’re doing? and so on.
Also, I love affiliate forms. There’s a lot of Facebook groups, and LinkedIn groups, and individual chat channels, and so on. While [unintelligible 00:31:09] talking about the industry, challenges they’re facing. Some of them share their wins and so on.
I think it’s a good balancing board just to get a feel of things. I know it’s a very nonconventional way of things, but I would say they’re very low-hanging fruits, just to get a good feel of like “Hey, what’s happening out there?” Obviously, on top of that, you have all the blogs and forums and so on, they’re more public with companies that are releasing articles and so on. I would say it’s a good arsenal of different types of news outlets or information outlets to formulate your own judgment and approach to marketing.
Jonathan: Awesome. Almost the last question, what’s your favourite pancake?
Novel: I’m a big buttermilk and chocolate guy. I love that. Every time that I have, that’s the thing. I think there’s also the stack pancake, I think it’s called, where it’s like the buttermilk and chocolate, and so on. That’s my one.
Jonathan: That’s my favourite as well. It was my favourite until one of the guests told me to start eating bacon and maple pancakes.
Jonathan: Since then– Yes. [chuckles] So that’s [crosstalk]–
Novel: It actually is good. Maple syrup and then bacon actually, they’re a very weird combination, but it’s so good. [chuckles]
Jonathan: Yes, and you’re in Canada, you have real maple syrup. [chuckles]
Novel: Yes. Exactly. [chuckles]
Jonathan: Yes, cool. Lastly, if folks want to reach out to you and chat about some things or just to get to know you, where can they find you?
Novel: Yes, happy to always connect with folks. I would say LinkedIn, probably, is the best place to connect. I think you’ll probably share a link or something like that, right?
Novel: Yes, LinkedIn is probably the best place to connect and go from there.
Jonathan: Awesome. Cool. Novel, thank you very much for doing this, it was a pleasure. I’ll speak to you soon.
Novel: Take care, bye.