In this episode of Mobile Growth & Pancakes, Jonathan Fishman (subbing in for Esther Shatz) is joined by Guilhem Duché, the Co-Founder and CPO of Once Dating Group. They discuss challenges on launching a new app and how to choose the best marketing tools for promoting your app.
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“For me, it was my first time working on my product. So you try to anticipate as many problems as you can. But when you get the real users’ experience, you see problems you haven’t anticipated before.”Guilhem Duche
- Guilhem has a background as a Java and C developer, project manager, and lead Android expert. In 2015, Guilhem co-founded and launched the Once App, a dating application that offers a better opportunity for singles to meet someone. Once differs from other dating apps by focusing on quality over quantity, helping people find their perfect matches.
- Guilhem and his team started Once in 2015. Initially, they planned to launch it in the USA. But, eventually, they shifted to Europe, where the market was less competitive. They started with France, raised funds, and developed their team to adapt to the market.
- When launching an app, especially in competitive categories, such as dating, you have to be ready with a significant user acquisition budget to get higher rankings. But finding the right influencers to market Once required a great effort from the marketing team. To succeed, you need to choose the right influencers, make good-quality content, target strategically, and measure the insights accurately. When you run into an acquisition, make sure you have the right people to set that up and spend the money wisely.
- Before investing much in ASO, focus on building a great product. Along with keyword optimization, top-page optimization is always available, no matter the dimension and impact of your app and user acquisition.
- Whether it’s on the App Store, main app, or specific countries, Once features its characteristics. It helps them get more downloads. However, in some industries, where people have to engage a lot, it may work differently.
- After the launch of Once, the team realized they had to face plenty of users and problems. Firstly, they had no feedback from the users, so they adopted customer support. Secondly, they had many KPIs to follow. Over time, they built better tools to track KPIs and to activate dome features on a subset of users.
App Icon do’s and don’ts plus six steps to testing
Jonathan: Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of Mobile Growth & Pancakes. I’m your host, Jonathan Fishman, I’m VP Marketing at Storemaven. Today with me, I have Guilhem Duché, He’s a Chief Product Officer and Co-founder of the Once App. It’s a really cool dating app. Guilhem, do you want to introduce yourself?
Guilhem: Yes, sure. As you said, my name is Guilhem. I’m French, as you can hear with my French accent. I’m based in London and yes, I co-founded a dating app called Once six years ago, and we try to be a kind of the anti Tinder. Instead of having to swipe all day long, we try to pick for you a set of [unintelligible 00:01:22] matches. That’s a marketing bias we have. I’ve been working on that for the last six years, and I have a tech background, so I joined as a founder, Android developer and transformed myself into a project management role which is a much different job.
Jonathan: It is. What’s unique about the app? You said that people can stop swiping all day long. I’m also asking for personal reasons. I might want to use it. [laughs]
Guilhem: The main pitch is instead of swiping all day long, what we do is we send you a match for you every day, and once you receive your match, she receives you as a match as well, and if you like each other, then you can connect and chat. That’s the main feature of the app, daily gamification. Everyone wants to see a good match every day. On top of that, we’ve built other features to drive engagement and satisfy as many users as possible. That’s how we work.
Jonathan: Amazing. How did you guys, you, and your co-founders get the idea to start the dating app in such a competitive industry? Did it scare you a little bit?
Guilhem: Yes. My CEO was already in the dating industry in the US, in some dating web app for universities, and he had a very strong growth plan there that worked fairly well. Then he decided to go for a new adventure. He was really thinking about people who were so focused on quantity on Tinder, and there was some space for something different.
There were already a couple of apps in the US trying to take this path, and we thought we could do the same. At first, we wanted to launch in the US, but we decided it could be much stronger in Europe because all founders were French, so we focused on Europe because also the resources we had, it was much easier to attract a European market because the US market is even more competitive and require even more resources. We decided to focus on Europe and things got way easier to launch in Europe.
Jonathan: That’s a really smart decision in my view. [clears throat] Sorry. It’s a really smart decision because everybody is looking at the US as the top market, the tier one market. If you’re a game developer, if you’re an app developer, but doesn’t have to be like that. I think that invading the cultural differences in dating, even within the US are insane. People think differently in that East and West Coast and in Europe, for sure, people date differently. It’s a really smart decision to focus your efforts in a smaller market but where you can have a niche.
Guilhem: Yes. I completely agree with you. Even outside of dating, I think people on those teammates are how big is the well, how many opportunities there are. There are spaces for plenty of concepts, even if you want to go into dating, even if it’s a very competitive market, there is always something new just because the habits change, the trends change, and Tinder is still the king but in five years probably it’s going to change. Someone will disrupt the market, and you also have a smaller niche that works really well. It can be specific countries, it can be specific sexualities, and that’s true for every industry. There is always space and you might find your place easier if you focus less on the most competitive market.
Jonathan: Yes, for sure. Let’s go back to the launch. When did you guys launch?
Guilhem: Six years ago. First, we had the idea to launch in the US and prepare for the US launch. In fact, we even pushed a bit and I did some better acquisition on Pandora, for instance, in New York and did some tests. Then at some point, we were like, “We need to go back to the drawing board and improve with the product and build a better team as well.” We were kind of spread in France. We decided to gather a team somewhere in Europe, so we picked London and changed a couple of key people in marketing for instance, and we focused on Europe firstly France. The first reason for that is just, we were all French, so it was some affinity with your own culture.
It’s a way easier for you to pitch. Also, in smaller countries like France, it’s a good PR story to talk about the newcomer or the new startup. You get some free PR for your launch and you better your message basically. We focused on launching in France and we also hired the right people to use different leverage we have. We had some resources, we had raised €3 million at that time, and for the launch, we decided to spend some money also on data acquisition. Data acquisition is super tricky. You need a lot of expenses.
By then, it was simpler than that, there’s always a bit less competition on [unintelligible 00:07:27] marketing. Also spending the money wisely on Facebook helped us launch very well. We need the PR story, influencers, and data acquisition to do a successful launch. When you have this recipe, you have lots of users coming in, but then the journey starts. It’s how you begin. You start creating users. People tend to focus on the launch as something like a set date, and then if it doesn’t work, then it’s over. It’s not like that. You got to make a push because when you launch, you want people to talk about you, but what’s next?
What you have to build is not, “How do I make a launch?” Is, “How do I get a constant flow of acquisition for a good price?” You have to think long-term. For sure, the launch is good, but what’s next? If you are not building a brand, if you’re not building, I don’t know, some vendor wellness or sympathy for your brand, building a community, trying to keep your users, you’re going to go nowhere. On top of that, what you need is to build a good marketing team.
Even a marketing team is like a team of tech experts. Over time, tech grows, they get better using the technologies that use better technologies, but it’s the same for a marketing team. You try new tools, you try new channels, you test new analytics tools to follow the user journey from the ads to spending in the app so this builds up over time. When you launch, be patient, be resilient, and plan not only for the short term but also for the long term.
Jonathan: For sure. There’s a lot to unpack here. You talked about paid user acquisition. We know it from a lot of launches out there, both in games and apps that the pay is extremely important when you launch, because first of all, it impacts your organic visibility. If you want to be ranked on the charts, especially in insanely competitive categories such as dating, you have to be ready with a significant user acquisition budget. The charts are basically ranked by the number of first-time downloads for any app. That’s the most important metric.
Unless you were able to get a lot of traction in the beginning, you won’t get to the top of the charts, then you have a much lower chance that the App Store editor team would notice you and feature you and then you appear in different curated lists. The second thing that you said that I think is really important and we see more of these days is using influencers when you start out. How did that go for you like using influencers? How did you go about finding influencers or knowing it’s the right influencers, and what were the results of that?
Guilhem: There’s no magic. There’s a lot of work behind this. We had a full team of marketing. We used to have one marketing guy per country so he knows the architecture of each country. Then you have to shortlist who would be the good influencers and reach out to them, propose a deal, and have a fair negotiation. It’s difficult to put a price on the video of an influencer, so you have to find a common ground to evaluate a fair price. You need to be used to track the impact of an influencer. For that, you need some attribution tools constant.
There’s no magic, but there’s feel strange a bit right now, now that you have some agencies of influencers. They gather plenty of influencers under one banner, so you can reach out to an agency and reach to several influencers. That, at the end of the day, means the content needs to be good, the targeting needs to be good, the measurement needs to be accurate to make sure you chose the right people. Never see it as one shot. If you do one influencer one time, you may get like 20k downloads, but what’s next? Always plan for longer-term.
If you go for influencers, it’s not– You can do the first step on a couple of influencers, but then how do I industrialize this process so I can renew my influencers and get a constant flow and build some brand awareness? Targeting the right influencer, the right audience, and getting known. This is a very long process. I think we could have done better in this area, but we have had some very good experiences.
Sometimes I remember in Brazil, we reached out to an Instagram influencer and we have like a– I don’t know, yes, I think it was something just over 100k of downloads just from the one right influencer. It was the cheapest paid acquisition we had ever. You can have a good surprise. There’s no limit of what we can do with influencers, but now I think also, as I said, the field has evolved and influencers know their power more than before.
Before you were contacting the influencer. Now, you have an influencer or someone working for the influencer reaching out to you saying, “Hey, this guy can talk about your app.” It’s very competitive. When you do paid acquisition, and it’s even more true for influencers, you need to measure. You need to measure the impact, you need to measure the error. That’s something quite tricky to put in place in a large-scale app, having an accurate measurement of the impact of a campaign like that.
Jonathan: Yes, for sure, especially now with the new privacy guidelines by Apple and everything which makes this traditional direct attribution tough.
Jonathan: That brings me to the point of building a brand, which is the third thing that you said, which I think is extremely important for an app. I truly love your view on the fact that the launch is just the beginning. It’s just the start. It’s not trying to engineer a huge spike in installs and that’s it. As you said, what’s next? Making a process out of the things that worked. Influencers, in my opinion, is also an amazing way to build a brand because one of the things we measure for a lot of apps and games, the impact of influencer marketing.
One of the things that we see is a pretty crazy increase in the amount of branded search in the App Store and in the Google Play Store. People start knowing your brand name and searching for it because they don’t necessarily tap on the link in the influencer video on whatever app it was. Did you guys see that increase in like people start searching for your brand?
Guilhem: Yes, we tried to measure that because at some point we had some TV ads in front. We also had some offline marketing campaigns like in the tube in Paris. That’s the thing, as soon as you go out of the digital world, everything gets much more complicated to measure. What we could observe is that when you gather TV ads plus tube ads plus maybe radio, things like that, you’re going to see just globally your CPI reduce a little bit. The overall measurement is going to be very, very difficult.
You will see your acquisition decrease because your brand awareness is going to increase, and you will get basically a bit more organic downloads because you can’t really measure someone who just saw your ad in the tube. If I remember correctly, you have to see it 7 or 14 times on average to go to download after. How do you know that someone who saw your ad is going to download it? It’s almost impossible to measure.
I remember years ago in a conference that someone, an expert in mobile acquisition, especially for gaming and he said, “If you want to go offline, that’s the last piece of– Do everything you can do online. The meaning behind doing everything you can do while you can measure because if you can measure, you can optimize. If you want to go out that, you already have a solid business model. We jump quickly into paid acquisition, but not everyone can afford to pay for the acquisition.
I think people have to realize when you start really spending a lot of money in your paid acquisition, your product should be already quite solid, and not only in terms of pure product but also in terms of being able to measure. It’s really critical. You can spend money on Facebook, it’s very– Spend it wisely. It’s very difficult and you need to have experts to lead that. Don’t focus on paid acquisition right away. You can have [unintelligible 00:17:36] acquisition being a bit smart. Optimize your product, optimize your ITV, and ramp up your paid acquisition. If you just jump into paid acquisition, the risk is you’re going to spend badly your money and you’re going to ruin yourself.
Jonathan: Yes, I think that’s a really interesting point because it’s two forces that are countering each other. On the one hand, you want to get the most visibility and brand and installs at the end of the day. If you’re an app and you’re preparing for a launch and you raised a few million dollars or euros, you have one shot, basically, and from a user perspective, today’s market is also extremely competitive. People don’t have a lot of patience for products that-
Jonathan: -don’t give them a great experience. If you spend all this money and then you’ve got these installs but your retention sucks, it’s going to be very difficult to acquire back these lapsed users and you already spent your ammunition as I call it. That’s a really good point.
Guilhem: Yes, and you pinpoint something clever as well is that when you raise money, you raise the expectations as well. You raise €3 million so you have to deliver results. You are in a growth phase. You need to grow. In fact, the tools you may need take some time to set up, to master. When you run into acquisition, make sure you have the right people to set that up and to spend that money because you can use tools that already exist that are going to help you tremendously, but you may have to build things that are custom. Those tools are very complex.
We have to talk about tools like Adjust, Appsflyer, for instance, specializing in attribution. [unintelligible 00:19:31] plenty of acquisition channels, Facebook, Google, TikTok, Snapchat. You name it, you have hundreds of them. In fact, for each app, the best-performing channel may change. We may get a good visit on Facebook, but some we get better visits on Snapchat because the targeting is better and testing all these channels. It’s not only a matter of tech setup. It’s only also a matter of time you need and to test ads on Snapchat, test the ad on TikTok and detect which marketing channel is the best. Hoping that in three months you’re going to deliver like amazing paid acquisition. No, it’s not going to happen. It’s not like that unless you hire experience in your team.
Jonathan: Yes, unless it’s not your first rodeo. You did a few launches before.
Guilhem: Also seem to mention that was interesting. I completely agree with you that the impact of the paid acquisition on store visibility is quite important. Some people think that part of the reason the IDF is the best thing to happen to IOS is to take control over the traffic because there were so many paid acquisitions that the editor of choice of Apple was not having as much impact as before.
I completely agree with you and what you have said. I would say that we didn’t really focus much on ASO at the beginning and last year, we put more effort into this. When you run a lot of paid acquisitions like we do, we spend always more than 100,000 monthly, for instance. The thing is the ASO impact can be imagined like you can’t really measure an impact of ASO. We’re working with two experts in the field. We were analyzing the data that they could get. I work with [unintelligible 00:21:32], for instance. The impact of ASO was quite marginal compared to the impact of the paid acquisition.
Jonathan: Yes, for sure.
Guilhem: It depends on the field but that’s the way it is in the dating industry and you’re right. Dating is a field with a lot of paid acquisition, and if you compete, at least with a bit with the money, it’s going to be very difficult at some point. There is always a way to disrupt and re-continue but it’s getting, I think, more and more difficult. A lot of big brands, we think they come from a nice startup story. Most of the time, they have big groups behind that are willing to spend 10s of millions for years to build the brand. Then they put the payrolls and when they have the brand, they put the payroll and get the money.
Jonathan: Yes, for sure. In terms of ASO, we’re a company that did a lot of apps optimization work both– We test basically product pages to find the most converting creatives. We did a lot of work in the dating space, mostly with the large groups that you mentioned. I think that the impact of ASO is– I wouldn’t recommend somebody that is just founded an app, for example, to put a lot of effort on ASO just from the get-go. There’s a lot of other things that they should focus on. First of all, building an amazing product, without that nothing will work.
Guilhem: There are two sides in the ASO. There is keyword optimization, like try to get a good rank. That’s one thing. I think this one if you have paid acquisition, it’s kind of difficult to improve but the store page optimization is something that is always relevant, whether you are small, big, or running paid acquisition. I know on our site, I think at some point, we kind of lose faith in that but recently, we made a recent test, and sometimes the design can have and the way you like show off your value proposition can have a big impact on the conversion of your store page can be always optimized.
Jonathan: Yes, I can tell you. I got a front-row seat to see these kinds of things. I was lucky but with changes in the creatives of the dating app, I saw different variations of it that can increase conversion rates by double-digit per cent. It affects the paid user acquisition side, it lowers your cost per install, basically. On the organic side, it has a huge effect as well. You get a lot more installs for the traffic that you get from search and from users browsing the App Store and sync your app in different lists so the Today tab or in Google the curated recommendations.
Guilhem: Another thing you mentioned that I think is interesting because I want to give another view on what is being featured.
Jonathan: Did you go for featuring? Did you try to talk to–
Guilhem: Yes, we had some featuring. Yes, we have some featuring whether it’s on the Playstore or on the App Store, on some occasions on our main app or secondary app on specific countries on that. There are some industries where it’s magical, and it’s going to bring so many downloads. For us, it’s good, it’s going to grow slightly the acquisition cost, but what we observe is that we are a dating app. It’s not because someone can see your app much better than he’s going to want to date. At the end of the day, when we feature our feature, we could see the conversion of our stoppage dramatically decrease because that more people see the state but they don’t want to date. [crosstalk]
The number of signups was almost not changing. I think now, at least for the Playstore, they are doing things much more cleverly and trying to target audiences that are likely to date. Don’t always expect to be like what I said before, like a PR launch type. Don’t expect that things to feature in the life will be good and you will get dollars forever. Featuring, its download visibility for a few days. After that, what? It helps. You’re going to get help in the eye of the stores. I think it’s particularly good for gaming, for instance, but in specific industries where people have to engage quite a lot, like sharing pictures of themselves, it’s not completely magical.
Jonathan: I totally agree with you specifically for apps on launch. As you said, if users don’t have the right state of mind, and they’re not coming in with the context they need in order to find value in your app. Of course, for dating is people have to be single most of the time, I want to want to imagine. For games, for example, it’s much more broader. A lot more people play games than people that date.
If it’s a different app, I don’t know, an app to transfer money somebody needs, he has to have the problem of I need to transfer money, somehow, I’m looking for a solution in order to find value in that. When there’s a featured on the Today tab and every App store visitor sees that, the vast majority won’t be interested so the conversion rates there are much lower. I just want to go back to the launch, how did it go? You did all of these things and what happened? Do you always say what’s next? What happened next for you guys?
Guilhem: Well, the first day, for me, it was the first time I was working on my own product. The first day you’re like, “What? So many users. How do I manage all that?” That was a big phase in the first months where we had to build because it was really like the Startup Launch. Things were not square everywhere. We have to cut corners on plenty of things whether it’s on tech, on the product, on the marketing. Then you have to face plenty of users and you face new problems. You try to anticipate as many problems as you can but when you get the real users, the real experience, then you see problems you haven’t anticipated before. At that time, we were doing full manual moderation of every single profile.
We had too many users so we had to reorganize the way we moderate the profiles, hire more people. Also, we realized that we develop our app with a specific mindset, imagining what is the user journey and what the user expects. You realize quickly that you have no feedback in fact. You’re in your office to push an app on the store and you can’t talk to your users. They’re somewhere in France, downloading the app, you [unintelligible 00:28:47] a match every day. You realize that, in fact, you need plenty of KPIs to follow.
Even before KPIs, the first thing you realize is, “Oh, I think we have an issue, we have a crash somewhere,” So we have plenty of tools to detect the crash, but we couldn’t really know what was happening. We open the channel to talk to our users. I talked with my CEO, and I say we need customer support. We need to talk to our users because otherwise, the only thing you have is a review and at that time you– I’m not sure you could even answer their reviews.
The reviews is not a good place to have a chit-chat with your users. It was very early and I just set up customer support. We put in the app, a way to contact us in the app. When you have 1000s of users, you’re going to have 50 people contacting you, giving feedback on something that is not working. What are their expectation and stuff, you get the hard truth so based on that–
Jonathan: What kind of feedback you guys got after the launch?
Guilhem: Well, the hard truth is people are difficult.
Jonathan: People are.
Guilhem: You try to pick a good match for them and sometimes you have people coming as, “Do you really think that girl is good for me?” You look at the girl, wow, the girl’s cute. What are you complaining about? Sometimes you’re like, “Oh, maybe we should improve our process and find a better match.” Yes, people are so difficult and people get so angry and people expect so much for free. It really help us have a better understanding of what was happening out there. At first, I think the first channel was, as I said customer support.
Then the second thing is KPI. KPI is everywhere. For sure, if you want to lead your team, you have to focus on three, four KPIs, not more. Otherwise, it gets difficult to follow and so many KPIs are linked in some way. If you try to follow plenty of them, you will look for correlation is going to be complex. When you lead your team, you should focus on three, four KPIs. KPIs can be used for many other things. Just understand what is happening in your app. At first, as I said, I have a tech background I was making mobile apps for plenty of clients before, and everyone was asking me, “Oh, you have to put analytics.”
They wanted analytics just because they were told, “Oh, you need analytics.” I never met any client who had any clue what to do with analytics. Whether we did with our app is we did the same like I think we need analytics, we put analytics and at first, we didn’t know how to leverage those.
Jonathan: Nobody explores the data and starts looking at it.
Guilhem: No, nobody explores. When we started to have some scale I was like, “Oh, but maybe I can know what is happening at scale, we can look at the analytics and I tried to understand what’s happening.” When I launch a new feature, can I follow the deployment of that feature? Over time, we build better and better tools to follow KPIs, to activate features on a subset of users, for instance, to measure things on a subset of users before rolling it out to everyone.
As I said, it was my first product. I wish I had known all that beforehand because we would have built a much better BI stack and analytics tools. Nowadays, you have amazing tools. Also, you can find it online. Some of them are very expensive, but even Google Analytics is crappy to use, but it’s powerful. It’s worth investing sometimes in analytics.
Jonathan: If you go back in time and you would do one thing differently, would it be building the data stack and analytics earlier?
Guilhem: Yes, it’s definitely. That’s really something people underestimate what you can get. It’s not only like a simple matter of conversion, it’s just understanding what’s happening and fact-checking that what you would expect is indeed happening when you launch a new feature. When you have some kind of outage, you can see one KPI decreasing and say, “Oh, if this event is not triggered, as much as usual, maybe I have tech issues here.” Sometimes it’s not even tech issues, sometimes it’s UX issues. You make something with a designer, you made the assumption that it was going to work.
You shift that quickly and then, oh, they don’t understand, they don’t click the right button. You think there’s this kind of error, dummy errors, but in fact, no sometimes it’s mind-blowing when you build something thinking it’s going to work this way people will react this way. In fact, most of the time, it’s not the case. When you develop you create an image of what is your standard users.
Jonathan: I think you touched on a really good point, where– I think we’ll wrap that discussion with this because we’re running out of time, but when you launch, all you have is a hypothesis or a few hypotheses altogether. It’s on the product and it’s also on the marketing side because we talked about the marketing components of a launch. Again, [unintelligible 00:34:32] you have no idea if that influencer will bring you 100,000 installs or 3,000.
Guilhem: You have a hypothesis on your user behavior or your user target team.
Jonathan: Yes and the user targeting, of course, and without data or the infrastructure to basically track these KPIs over time, with context, like understand the timeline of when you did something and what was the holistic impact of it both in the product, but on the marketing side as well. It’s extremely hard. One of the problems there that we’re trying to solve at Storemaven and we actually have a product called Polarbeam that is helping marketers understand the impact of their mobile marketing activities, whether it’s featuring a TV ad, or something offline, a new channel with data acquisition and how it affects all channels, both through organic and paid.
How does it affect branded search, for example, and measuring it and basically validating your hypothesis, what’s working and what’s not, so you can double down on what’s working and stop doing what’s not? I think it’s extremely important and to solve the problem you mentioned, when you have analytics, in the beginning, nobody can work with it. You either need people that know SQL or you need data scientists, sometimes if it’s a ton of data and you need people that know how to work with data. These platforms are not that easy to use, you have to be an expert with data.
The things that we’re trying to solve with our analytics product is basically democratizing data, giving people a very easy-to-use interface So anyone without knowing how to code, they don’t know Python, they don’t know SQL, they can still analyze data, understand what’s going on and measure with pretty good accuracy, the impact of the different activities. Be it a new version or a new, I don’t know, advertising starting to advertise on Snapchat. That’s really important. Cool. Before we end this, I actually have one more point that we might– Are you familiar with custom product pages, by the way? With iOS 15 there’s the ability to have different–
Guilhem: Oh, no, we haven’t tried it yet.
Jonathan: It’s not out yet but it’s going to be out pretty soon. Just talking about ASO and the launches of apps in the future, imagine that in the launches of the future, you’d be able to launch with a campaign that is targeting women and a campaign that is targeting men and invading it’s really easy for those different groups and those LGBTQ but in general, you can craft a product page that works for men and a product page that works for women and for different preferences. That’s a new possibility. That would be really interesting for you guys to check out as it comes out but for launches, it would make that even more targeted.
Guilhem: It is. It’s very interesting. You could already do that per country on the Play Store but the way Apple is bringing it is very interesting. I see for the marketing team that there is good leverage and a bit more work for the marketing. People undervalue the work of marketing and [unintelligible 00:37:44] to either say it’s a long process and testing and it’s a dominant process.
Jonathan: Cool. Before we will end I just want to ask you one question we ask all guests, which is the name of the podcast is Mobile Growth & Pancakes, I have to ask, what is your favorite pancake? What flavor? I’m also hearing a lot of answers from different countries so it’s interesting what goes in France?
Guilhem: [chuckles] That’s a good question.
Jonathan: Or is it crepe? Do you eat crepes?
Guilhem: Yes, we eat crepe in the region of France where I’m from, we eat a crepe. I think the simple one with butter, sugar is always the best.
Jonathan: Lemon, add lemon
Guilhem: And lemon.
Jonathan: That’s amazing.
Guilhem: I eat with the lemon. It’s amazing.
Jonathan: Awesome. That’s awesome too. Cool. Thank you very much for joining us today. It was a real pleasure and we’ll speak to you soon.
Guilhem: Thank, Jonathan. Thank you for having me.